Surrogate motherhood: interview to Chiara Lalli, podcaster of “Affittasi Utero”, journalist and bioethicist.

Translated by Irene Cecchi

On October 16th 2024 surrogate motherhood in Italy became chargeable even if done abroad.

To delve into the issue, we interviewed Chiara Lalli, bioethicist and journalist, author of Affittasi Utero (literally, Uterus for rent), a podcast that aims to contest “some bad opinions and common beliefs about surrogate”.

The podcast in collaboration with the Luca Coscioni Association for freedom of scientific research where she works as general councilor. The association is committed to the theme of surrogate motherhood and has been working since 2015 to a law proposal that would allow solidarity surrogacy (non-profit action).

1. Would you explain clearly the differences between the different kinds of surrogacy? The limits to this practice are actually based only on ethical and ideological issues? What would be the advantage of a legalization of this practice?

From a technical point of view, there is a woman who carries out the pregnancy and another one, or a couple, who raise the baby. The embryo can proceed from one member of the couple or may be obtained thanks to someone else’s gamete (this is the ieìnevitable path in case of a single parent or a same-sex couple). Usually, they don’t use the surrogate’s egg cells, the so-called traditional surrogate. From a contractual point of view, it can be a form of solidarity, meaning only medical expenses will be reimbursed, or it can be a commercial one and in this case a payment is required. It is inconceivable and naive to believe that every kind of surrogacy is necessarily and automatically repugnant from a moral point of view. A good law would safeguard freedom and reduce the risk of abuse.

2. On October 16th 2024, surrogacy, which was already illegal in Italy since 2004, became chargeable even if done abroad. It was often defined “universal crime” but wrongly since it lacks of requirements to be defined like that; as explained by Marco Pelissero, criminal law professor at Turin University “the law proposal only extend the application of a criminal law to surrogacy carried out abroad by Italian citizens”.

The same Luca Coscioni Association published some articles regarding the use of this expression: is it used in order to simplify the communication and the language?

Experts like Professor Pelissero describe this law as “characterized by a starting affectivity that makes it mostly symbolic”; do you agree with this opinion?

We could say that it is a desired universal crime. Yes, it is a symbolic positioning to show “how much do we care about rights”, even if it’s not clear who’s rights. Furthermore, it lacks premises so we will see what will happen with this mythomaniac and moral crime. Anyways, today this law is ruling, firstly signed by Varchi, and we can only wait to see its consequences, which for sure will not be to protect babies and women, as the supporters claim.

3. In the law there is no distinction between solidarity and commercial surrogacy while in the alternative proposed by the Association in 2015 there was the possibility to resort to a fair and solidarity form of surrogacy.

Would you depict the main points of that text? Why does the proposal only consider the solidarity way?

Because, as today in Italy, it’s the only option. The law proposal written by the Luca Coscioni Association, jointly with experts and other associations, it’s this: it’s easy, well written, and includes all the definitions and premises required for a good law. At the core there is the guarantee of the rights and freedom for “every actor involved, especially of the newborns”. The agreement, voluntary and free, establishes that the intentional parents assume custody and responsibility for the newborns who become legitimate children in the birth certificate (this is how you protect them!!). The gametes can proceed from one of them or from a donor but the egg cell can not be the expectant woman’s one. Among the subjective criteria there are the impossibility to carry out a pregnancy for the intentional parents and the need to have had at least one child already for the expectant woman, who also has to have a certain income. A medical and psychological route is expected too and you can be charged up to 20 years of jail in case of forcing, obliging or persuading a woman to pursue this procedure. This law can be modified and improved but for sure this is the right way, not forbidding it and prevail over the borders to do so.

4. Your association announced that starting on October 16th you will be fighting back at trials: how many pending trials are there currently? How do you build the defense?

The law was officially published on November 18th and it will be ruling starting on December 3rd so for now there are no pending trials. We will go to court trying to raise the constitutional legitimacy issue. Then, we will see how they will implement the Varchi law, overcome procedural issues and explain how imprisoning up to two years and sanctioning up to 600.000 euros the intentional parents is beneficial for the babies.

5. How does surrogacy work in other countries and what does the public opinion think? Do the conservatives prevail, like in Italy? Is surrogacy legal only in its solidarity form or also the commercial one? Is there a model we can refer to?

There are many countries that ruled about surrogacy or allow it without a specific law. Here we have a pretty good map, by Alessia Cicatelli. I’d start with the law in the UK, in force since 1985, since I believe it’s a great example of how a law should be written (the last episode of my podcast Affittasi Utero focuses on it). As I said, every law can be improved, there are laws regarding both solidarity and commercial surrogacy. The main issue is related to the will, freedom of choice, informed consent and possible health risks. I repeat, every law can be improved but thinking that the best solution is to forbid everything is a naive approach.

6. In the fourth episode of Affittasi Utero you contest the arguments of those who claim to be in favour of the autodetermination of a woman, and consequently her liberty to decide over her own body, but believe that surrogacy would be a choice determined by her socio-economic status. About that, in the countries where commercial surrogacy is allowed, are there any specific measures to avoid any kind of exploitation? Or do they refer to general rules? What kind of solutions could be employed in this sense?

There are economic requirements and also other factors to respect (that’s how good lows work). While we try to solve poverty and wars, we deny every woman to do it just to clean our consciousness? I’m thinking about what happened in Cambodia where some surrogates were obliged to keep a child that was not theirs. They were arrested, charged with human trafficking, some of them had to give birth while tied to a bed in a military hospital (They Were Surrogates. Now They Must Raise the Children, December 14th 2020, The New York Times). It would be great if everyone could choose not to work or take not ideal choices but the vast majority of human beings work because they have to and need to, right?

7. Your podcast aims to logically contest and discredit the most rooted objections against surrogacy. Does this approach work with conservative people?

Are you asking me if suggesting breathing and thinking works? Rarely, because people who think that way usually aren't open to listening to other opinions and stick in their position (that is often a prejudice o a second-hand one). It’s just like the most obsessed anti-vax. I’m not saying that there are no ways to condemn or deny it, but that speeches like “unnatural, you can’t buy children, women are not ovens” are not arguments but just nonsense.

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